So... should we mark down how many force points we use in our posts? :P

Yes, yes... that is exactly what he was pointing out! LMAO

What if people do that in an effort to remember how many points they have used, or have left, so that they can keep track, and not be penalized for "overusing the Force"? I know, I know. I can hear it now. "They should write it down on a piece of paper." Or something else. But honestly, with the potential for up to two weeks between posts in some battles, it seems easier to me to utilize the battle itself to keep track. It basically equates to an "OOC note" left, which hasn't ever been a problem before, as far as I'm aware.

Things is, we have to take into account the point we spend for our opponents and those they spend for us, too. In this light, it would only make sense if both sides add the actual points. And it would look a bit weird to see the points there.

Maybe we should have to click on a list like we have with the MB smileys with Force abbrevations to add the Force powers, and then the system would count it for us. But that'd be too complicated I suppose :o) And we really don't have to be that lazy.

Okay, first off - if you read the material you'd remember that if your opponent writes Force use for you it doesn't count against your pool. Yes, maybe it should - but since you have no say in what powers your opponent writes for you, it doesn't count against you.

Second - we went over the system info repeatedly, and we felt the point was made fairly clear of how the system would be used, but I can't deny that there's been a little confusion - so let's see if this explanation helps: A combatant tracking their own points would be the same as if they made a list, in their post, of all the words they misspelled, all of the actions that weren't commensurate with their stats and/or other infractions that they think they made.

What Bloodfyre said.

I have absolutely no desire to waste my time reading through a whole fight again when doing my deathpost to make sure I don't go over my limit.

If theres a valid reason why judges are incapable of skipping a few lines then I'll stop, but aside from some complete obsessive compulsive reading disorder forcing them to read everything placed in front of them I can't exactly see what the big deal is.

If we're going to bring in points systems they need to be kept user friendly, if people aren't even allowed to keep track of their points use for their own benefit then the system has a serious problem, because people are going to stop caring about points and just ignore it - which defeats all point of having it.

Either way, I keep tally of my points for my benefit, not the judges.

You could always just keep it somewhere else rather than the battle itself. And if someone really wants one, I do have a simple Excel sheet that can calculate it for you :P

That being said, please remember that this Force Power Conversion deal is not the end all or be all of every battle. It plays a small part in terms of overall realism. It is also there so there is a set guideline for how much to use the force (something many people have complained about previously).

We're not big fans of the whole OCC-thing any longer, and what Dalthid has stated allows for everyone to be on the same page. One person may just list their points...someone else may do so in the middle of the battle...someone else may list every single power they've been using, etc...

So, just keep a little tally aside somewhere for youself and I highly suggest a little excel sheet or something if you really want to be adding up your points (which can then be saved for each batttle)

Let me restate myself:

"I know, I know. I can hear it now. "They should write it down on a piece of paper." Or something else. But honestly, with the potential for up to two weeks between posts in some battles, it seems easier to me to utilize the battle itself to keep track. It basically equates to an "OOC note" left, which hasn't ever been a problem before, as far as I'm aware."

I figured someone would mention something of the sort (Thanks Halc). It still doesn't make it any more ridiculous to say "You can't make notes on the battle; strictly combat writing! No OOC!" Maybe I'm just stubborn, but I'm not going to be keeping an ACC file for each battle that shows when and where I used points for my knowledge, so that judges don't have to "skip over them." I'd put them straight in the battle.

Quoting Dalthid:

"A combatant tracking their own points would be the same as if they made a list, in their post, of all the words they misspelled, all of the actions that weren't commensurate with their stats and/or other infractions that they think they made."

Isn't that the point of spellcheckers, and making sure it's realistic, and trying to write the battle as "accurately" as possible? If people aren't supposed to care about "the detractions," but are going to get judged for them...? Maybe I'm just not seeing it. And, it just kind of seems contradictory to me.

"Use the Force Points system. But don't sully your battle with them! I don't want to actually SEE it in use, I just want you to use it!"

I mean, seriously. Is it that big of a deal if people use their posts to keep track of their Force-use? If this is just to help "tone it down," or make their Force-use a little more realistic or whatnot, and they just notate at the bottom, "Force Points: Mental (X) Physical (Y) Whatever (Z)" and adds them up from whatever they used in their posts...? Still not seeing a reason not to do this. I mean, is it just because it makes the posts "not pretty"?

Basically, the idea of this whole system was to put everybody on a level playing field and to allow them to calculate their Force usage from the same rulebook, so to speak.

Therefore, it's not a key thing- there's no need to stick [TES-6 points] or whatever in the battle. Assume that the Judges have enough mental power to open up the list of Force powers and their costs and work it out themselves. For one thing, sticking how much each power costs in clutters things up and detracts from the key point of the ACC- the writing.

Besides, I tend to save my battle posts on my desktop anyway until the battle is done, when I delete the notepad file. There's nothing stopping me from sticking my Force usage in there as well.

Actually no. Though I don't share the idea that judges are equipped with an "obsessive compulsive reading disorder ", the posting of the points would definitely draw attention to an element that doesn't require that kind of attention. Despite the intent, tracking the points in that manner will put them in a spotlight that they don't need to be in - unfortunately, that's a fact. Of course! Spellcheckers are for spelling - that was just an example to point out the lack of necessity for tracking FP points "in a post" - thanks for biting :P In the same manner that you wouldn't list correctly spelled words that are incorrect in the text of the post, it is unnecessary to tally Force Points because they only effect you - not your opponent. It is also in the same boat as those people who used to put their STR, DEX and CON at the end of each of their posts - citing the same thing: "it's for my benefit"...nonsense.

The argument works both ways: You ask "why can't we...?" and I ask "why do you "need" to...?" If it's simply a matter of 'having the choice', I'd have to say "that's not good enough". Generally, most combatants aren't/haven't ever been in jeopardy of being unrealistic with Force use - even our Force-mad Oracle :P So, tallying points in a post is unnecessary. It will effect the god-modders, who aren't combatants that would tally their points anyway - but eventually learn what they're doing wrong (most of the time) - yet, it effects their scoring with no more weight than misspelled words.

I don't want to establish a format for doing it because, for some reason, some can't get a grip on anything that's standardized - Force power annotations being a great example. OOC's, of any kind, suck because of their general nature - not because of how they "look" in reference to the battle's text. They have been abhorred by me long before I was CM, and I am not the only one who feels that way about the 'usual' OOC. In addition, the need for 'continuity' in the ACC's format (not talking about the judging element) has always been an issue. We've tried to have unnecessary practices removed so brand new combatants and/or veterans can participate in a battle and not be surprised by anything out of the ordinary - despite whether it effects the battle or not.

Case in point - a fan of footnoting force powers participated in a battle with a relatively new combatant. After the first post I was mailed; asking me what the footnotes meant and how they were supposed to write with them. I told him what they were and the kid pressed on - and started footnoting the powers in other battles because he thought he 'had' to, yet he was told not to. That rubbed off on a few more people and triggered my report a few months ago reminding folks not to do it (despite the Cyris's and Alaric's that had tried to establish the same thing). If we go with 'post the remaining points', people will post what they have spent, and vice versa - Murphy's Law an' all - It's better off to say 'don't' across the board; that way the resulting confusion is potentially minimal. Throwing in "mechanical options" has never gone well in the ACC because of the vast amount of people and 'types' of people that participate. The attempts we make to try and get everyone heading in the same direction, as far as "understanding" is concerned, has always been a bit of a fight.

Of course, now that I know it's such a tear-jerking issue for some, I expect to see a lot more of it, just out of spite :P In the end, there's been a lot of "do not's" out of this office, most before I came on board - but all for the greater benefit - still, there's folks who do their own thing. It's always been that way, and it prolly always will be - so, though this still remains as a "don't", I'll leave people to what they're going to do. We all have better things to worry about, I'm sure.

I still just see a lot of "we dont like this" comments. It may well be some people may dislike it but thats not a reason for it to be prohibited. There are some people who do like it, what about them? Its certainly true you could keep a record somewhere else but its much easier just to keep it in the battle itself.

I agree that people who reference STR, DEX and CON in their posts are wasting their time, but I disagree entirely that its the same thing. STR, DEX and CON might affect a single punch in a single post, FPs are a cumulative thing that might affect what you do in your next post, so keeping track of them is going to be important for the writer. Its not like a regular footnote thats just making a comment about a particular post, its keeping a running tally that directly affects the next post.

People won't be keeping tracks of FPs for the judges, they'll be doing it for their own benefit. Its pretty obvious that judges are going to work the numbers out themselves anyway, rather than take the writers word for it, in case they added up wrong. The footnotes are just so the writer doesnt have to go through and add it all up again each time their opponent posts.

"We don't want people worrying about FPs too much" may also be true, but what happens if somebody goes over their limit? Can the other person appeal if they lose? Is the person disqualified? Do they lose marks?

Most people don't want to run the risk of quickly adding up their FPs in the last post and missing one somewhere, and, as a result, going over the top. There must be some chances of running out of FPs else having the system would be totally pointless, so people are going to keep track of them, whether or not you want them to focus on their remaining FPs or not.

Plus are you saying that if somebody goes over their FP allowance, it wont affect the judgment? Unless you are I'd think keeping track of one's FPs in rather important during the battle. People already get disqualified (i.e. automatically lose) if they use a Force Power they can't use, or overdo something. I'm quite sure going over their FPs will be a big factor in whether or not they win or lose a fight, so people are going to want to keep track.

And imagine, lets say somebody does win, even if they go over their total number of FPs, what do you say to the loser if they appeal? They'd have a fairly good case against the judgment. I can't see many judges wanting to deal with that pressure, so disqualifying people for going over the FPs seems like a pretty likely occurance, at least in close fights, so nobody can tell me keeping track of FPs wont be important.

At the end of the day, if the idea is just to discourage it, fair enough. If people get knocked marks though just because their presentation was poor or the judge in question has a pet hate of footnotes, well, thats an entirely different story. Not all the submissions to any other competition always look nice, but it doesnt mean they lose marks just because they didnt wrap it up nice and put a bow on it.

As for the new members getting confused, is that not the point of training battles and the ACC SA course? For these kind of points to be mentioned to them so they understand its not necessary for them to use footnotes etc.?

#1. No Force Points annotations. Some people like 'em, some don't. For everyone involved, just please don't use them.

#2. You WILL NOT be DQ'ed if you go over your Force Point limit. It does play into your realism score however, just like any other piece of god-moding did prior to this system. We will continue to judge using our regular criteria. Dal explains fully how this system will be used in judging in his FAQ section

#3. Not everyone goes through/needs training who are new. They "get it" right off the bat but can still be confused when the go into "real" combat.

This has been laid out so that it can be as fair and neutral to ALL involved. Someone people won't like it, some won't care, etc...it happens.

I know how important the FP points are, I created the system - but I also know how important are stats, writing, weapon use and all of the things that go into rating a battle - yet we provide no provision for displaying those in the battle text. You seem to be stuck in this idea that it's a matter of "appearance" - and that's okay, the fact that you basically ignored everything else is what I expect, so I'll live with that :P

"People won't be keeping tracks of FPs for the judges, they'll be doing it for their own benefit." Great, super - but why does it NEED to be done in the battle text?...

"Its certainly true you could keep a record somewhere else but its much easier just to keep it in the battle itself" Great. So you're whole thing is because it's "easier"? Well, that's just as bad as IF our sole argument was based on "appearance".

The rest of your questions are clearly covered in the FAQ's - as Halc stated. If there are any other questions on the system, feel free to ask.

This whole "discussion" was about putting FP points in the battle text - which was addressed by 'don't do it'. The answer to the question "why not?" is: "because it creates a scope of problems that you'd have to be on this side to understand" - which raises the second question "why not?" and the answer: "because, overall, it is unnecessary information that draws attention to something that doesn't need to be given a pedestal" - which raises the third question "why not?" and the answer: "because there is a 0% chance that we'll be able to get everyone to do it the same way, and interpreting a million different scenarios is a pain in the a**" - which raises the forth question "why not?" - whose answer is another question, which is "why do you need to?" - which is answered by "because it's easier...", which is answered by "that's not good enough..." Finally, the answer to the fifth question "why not" is: "because I asked you not to" - which births another question "why not?" With which I reply - "please see the answer to the first question and go from there." :P

Well, I see the only solution is for members to be able to add a private note to every battle. It's already tedious enough to switch between four windows when writing (battle text, my charsheet, his charsheet and the window in which to actually write) but that's what you need to do if you want to be realistic. Now you dismiss "it's easier" and ask folks to add a fifth, keeping records of FP use across posts somewhere on their disks. The only thing I see this could achieve is fewer people posting - or fewer people caring about the system and thus more bad posts.

IMO, the best place for the annotation would simply be with the abbreviation - writing (TK, 19) instead of just the (TK) moniker. But yes, this would make the moniker more prominent, so this isn't a good option either.

Which brings us to what is IMO the most sensible solution - a "scratchpad" window for each combatant that only the combatant himself sees. Take notes of what you want to do in the next post if you just had a great idea and it's not your turn, keep track of FPs, whatever. But the important part is it's in a place you're regularly looking anyway: Next to the battle. This would also help the writing process in general - no long scrolling to see how many shuriken you had already thrown, keeping the important numbers of an opponent's CS in view without constantly needing the full sheet... anything the author likes.

Should help improve battles - and that wouldn't exactly be bad, right ?

(Side note - scratchpads should never be visible to judges and disappear once the battle is judged to save database space)